How Sand Batteries Are Quietly Solving Industrial Heat Emissions | Soliverse Ep. 41

Most discussions around energy storage focus on electricity. But what if the bigger opportunity is heat?

In this episode of Soliverse, Peter Pongracz speaks with Tommi Eronen, CEO and Co-Founder of Polar Night Energy, the company behind the world's first commercial sand battery.

Tommi shares the story behind the technology, how thermal energy storage works, and why industrial heat remains one of the most overlooked challenges in the global energy transition. The conversation covers thermal storage economics, district heating, industrial decarbonization, project deployment in Finland, and Polar Night Energy's vision for scaling Heat as a Service across Europe.

Connect with Tommi Eronen:

LinkedIn
Polar Night Energy

Transcript

Coming up...

Tommi Eronen 0:00

The general population doesn't really ander kuinta is globally used in the industrial processätä. It's something like 40% of the energy-related greenhouse gas emissionästä comes from heating. They have a huge global potential. In the beginning, when we have the excess power from the grid from solar or wind, then we use normal resistors to turn that electricity into heat. So you can imagine that as a giant toaster. In our case it's heating air pressure air inside a large duct.

Peter Pongracz 0:55

What was the the initial spark?

Tommi Eronen 0:56

Yeah, a high-temperature energy storage. But yeah, uh,

From university to building a sand battery company

Tommi Eronen 1:00

so uh we were studying uh power plant technologies at the Tunbere University of Technology. Somehow we got uh really interested about uh energy storages and energy self-sufficiency. So uh in the beginning, when we were still studying, yeah, it was about uh like sustainable uh energy for for buildings and so that you you would uh actually produce your own own energy there, but uh we have transitioned from there to the to the industry. In the beginning, uh we we thought about like what kind of energy storage uh you should have so that you could be totally heat uh independent. And uh we were thinking about uh water-based uh energy storages like large water tanks. Uh but uh I made my master thesis on those, and after after that theses, we realized that in the future the clean energy that has to be stored will be electrical energy. And uh basically that was the light bulb moment that if you have uh clean electricity, uh then you can go as high temperatures as you want in inside the storage. Then the heat is more valuable when it's at at high temperature, because then you obviously can come down from there, but you you can't raise it up with without a heat pump.

Why does storing heat at high temperatures actually make sense?

Peter Pongracz 2:31

Wow. So maybe maybe can we dig into the physics of that? So can you explain to the audience how this whole uh heating part works and why does it actually make sense physically?

Tommi Eronen 2:41

Yeah. So so if you have uh let's say one one kilowatt hour of elektricity with resistors, electrical resistors, uh you can uh raise that temperature like basically whatever temperature you you desire as long as your materials can withstand that. And that's that's very valuable. Uh where you can then output high temperature heat for all sorts of uh purposes. And in our case, in the beginning we were thinking about that what would be the right material uh where we would store uh the heat. But uh then we thought that it's going to have too much organic material and it's gonna burn and uh smell smell bad. So the näch cheapest most readily avenible material would then be sand. And then we started testing uh the idea of sand battery.

Testing the first sand battery prototype at a grandparents cottage

Peter Pongracz 3:51

Wow. So so I guess it didn't work on the first try either.

Tommi Eronen 3:54

Yeah. Well we we were successful in the uh like testing it. And we built a small uh demo sand battery to my grandparents' gottach in in Finland, and uh it was uh amazing to see that our measurements uh from that small demo were only 3% off from my computer simulations. And yeah, that was amazing.

Peter Pongracz 4:27

When we look at the problem itself, like why

Why normal batteries alone cannot solve the industrial heat problem

Peter Pongracz 4:30

what did you see in the energy system that made you think like okay, this is broken and and the normal batteries alone won't be able to fix this problem.

Tommi Eronen 4:38

The general population uh doesn't really understand how much heat is globally used in the industrial processes. It's something like uh 40% of the energy-related uh greenhouse gas emissions comes from heating. So this kind of high-temperature uh thermal storage is they have a huge global potential to reduce the greenhouse gas emissions. And obviously, uh our aim to our aim is to do that uh profitably uh for the end customers and as also.

Peter Pongracz 5:18

Do you have any data on this? So you you mentioned 40% of all greenhouse gases. Do you have any any terawatt hour uh estimate of how much this actually requires to be addressed?

Tommi Eronen 5:29

Uh I can actually uh say a number by heart, uh, but it has to be like many, many thousand uh terawatt hours yearly that has to be produced. And it's a multi-trillion uh dollar market, so there's uh room for uh quite many companies like us.

Sand battery versus lithium ion: what do people get confused about?

Peter Pongracz 5:51

What do people get confused about using the the sand battery versus the traditional lithium ion when it comes to the best type of storage?

Tommi Eronen 5:59

We are focused uh on producing heat uh out from the storage at the moment. And uh obviously lithium-ion batteries would be uh outputting elektricity so they they are different. But uh we are actually uh having a RD project ongoing in in Finland, Valger Goski. We will try to also output elektrika energy and heat simultaneously out from the sand battery. And this uh will be done with konventional turbine technologin. So then we will be in uh more similar setup than tan with Letium iron batteries, but still, those systems most likely will be used in a places when you will have a use for that heat that will be given after the turbine so you wouldn't be wasting that. They are both utilizing uh the heat and electricity uh at the same time.

How do you actually charge a sand battery?

Peter Pongracz 7:22

And maybe if you dig a little bit deeper into what you guys are actually storing, right? So can you explain to a non-talk technical person how do you actually charge this battery and how do you discharge it? So, what are the the simple mechanisms that are going on there?

Tommi Eronen 7:38

Actually, like uh at least quite simple to uh tell how it's uh done. So uh in the beginning when we have the excess power uh from the grid from solar or wind, uh then we use normal uh resistors to turn that electricity into heat. So you can imagine that as a giant toaster that is uh in our case it's heating air pressure air inside a large uh duct, and then that uh airstream is divided into small pipes and that goes through the sand. And the air and the sand doesn't ever mix so that they are separated with the pipe wall. And it's a closed loop. So then uh when the air has given its heat to the sand, it returns with the help of an industrial fan to the resistors, and that loop just goes around and around. And then when we need heat out from the system, uh the process is reversed. So then the sand eats the air. And uh the air it gives its heat to the heat exchanger, or then we can we can have a steam generator there to produce the steam for industrial use.

Peter Pongracz 9:07

Wow. So there you go, guys. Three physics lessons from

What is the real value proposition of the sand battery system?

Peter Pongracz 9:10

Tommy. But uh maybe maybe if we segue into the the value proposition of the whole system, right? Is it is the real value proposition that it's uh lower cost, maybe a longer duration, uh, maybe perhaps the lower carbon footprint as well, or what is the main difference between this and a typical BES system? What are the pros and cons?

Tommi Eronen 9:31

Yeah, I think uh the best systems are used in uh different uh places. Because our system uh would be used like let's say food food and beverage company needs uh steam for the process to produce the beverages. So there is no BES system that would be producing that steam because the amount of uh energy that is needed to produce that steam is so significant that you you would have to invest like millions and millions, uh even in small scale to that uh BEST system. So those those are not done uh when your output of energy is heat. So it makes much more sense to store that energy as a heat when you're using heat. Majority of our customers are looking to reduce their carbon footprint in in their processes, uh but also simultaneously uh trying to lower the cost of heating. And uh then additionally, uh many of them are also looking uh to do their share in the grid stabilisation. So the uh this called ancillary markets when you're gonna have actually quite good income uh from uh doing the grid balancing. Uh that that's like a great uh solution for our system also, even though it's not producing electricity to the network at all. But but when you are timing the consumption uh very well as needed uh from the grid, uh that's that's very useful for the for the grid balancing.

Peter Pongracz 11:31

You touched on a couple of keywords there. So, in first of all, the industrial use case, right? This is becoming hotter and hotter both in Europe and everywhere else globally. You know, as as these global supply chains are slowly disintegrating, production will need to come back home to Europe as well as to the US. So it's going to be a huge challenge to be able to support you know this new demand for electricity for all of these production uh companies. And I think you know a use case like yours will definitely be a groundbreaking help for those guys as well.

Tommi Eronen 12:03

Yeah, thanks. Uh I think so too. It's obviously super hard for the uh grid uh uh like DSOs and TSOs uh to to actually uh key keep the uh grid operating and uh uh transport enough juice for the whole uh economy uh who is uh transitioning uh from uh burning stuff to do like almost everything uh electrically.

Peter Pongracz 12:37

I hear the same, and especially from a solar perspective, you know, we see the the clear tendency, right? Last year we had uh I read some points of data the other day that we had uh a few hundred or a few thousand you know negative hours in in Spain and Germany as well during the peak of the summer. This year we will actually have much more of those hours. So what is becoming increasingly more important is to be able to produce more flexibly to respond to help the grid respond to all of these peaks and troughs, and basically to shave off that duck curve, right? And and these type of solutions are exactly the solution for that for that issue.

Tommi Eronen 13:16

Yeah, that's right. And uh you you mentioned duck curve. So I think uh it was like a topic in in California when it was uh talk about the most. Uh when the uh power curve from the uh daily usage it's uh it looks a little bit like a like a duck. Uh when there's so much uh solar power production during the midday that it pushes down the need from other sources. So that's basically the the back of the duck. And then uh during the night time where where the head comes from uh is the is the peak when everyone comes to comes to home and put their ACs to the full power and other other devices at their home. So I think uh they have done an incredible job uh in in California trying to mitigate that problem because they have installed a massive amount of batteries there and uh so that they they wouldn't have to use uh like gas gas power uh so much uh during the uh night hours.

Peter Pongracz 14:32

We talked a little bit about the energy density of the whole system

How does sand compete with lithium ion on energy density?

Peter Pongracz 14:36

as well, and um we'll also plug some s slides here afterwards. But uh can you unpack uh the you know when it comes to the lithium-ion batteries, for example, of course it has much higher volumetric energy density, but how does the the sand actually still make sense? You know, can you explain the audience? You know, we we have this silo of of sand and we maybe maybe take it from here.

Tommi Eronen 15:01

Yeah, uh so if if we again uh we are we are comparing this uh uh to that to the best system. Uh so let's say uh the use cases in uh California or or somewhere else where they also need uh electricity out from it. Uh so we would be talking our uh next generation product, uh the sand sand to power here. So in the beginning I was thinking that uh in lithium-ion batteries the energy density is something like uh ten times uh larger than uh in in hot sand. But then uh when you consider that uh that energy density is inside the lithium ion cell. And then when you when you produce a one pack from it, there's a great uh amount of uh air inside the pack. And then when you build the rack with the packs, there's again a big amount of air between those uh packs. And then going forward from there, your racks I think typically are around two meters tall only. And then again there's separation uh between the racks if there's a fire so that the other other racks wouldn't catch the fire. So you you had greatly reduced uh the like actual uh energy density that can be on on site when you will either buy the land or rent it, so then it's uh significant cost. But in our case uh we don't have that air between there. So we we could basically just uh dig the whole system uh to the ground. Now when we are building these heat-only systems, uh they are in these vertical silos, but in the future these sand to power systems will be horizontal uh in the ground or above. So we can greatly uh like raise uh the energy density uh from of the system. And actually, uh like only rough calculations uh at the moment, uh, but the end energy density can be actually like ten times higher than with lithium-ion batteries uh when you compare these two together. And then obviously, even the next plus is that uh we are also outputting thermal energy uh out from the system, so that can be used in uh industrial uh processes.

Peter Pongracz 17:57

Wow. So so basically the the very long explanation short in one case, which is the lithium ion, you fill a cup or a barrel with rocks, and in your case you actually fill it with sand literally. So there is no uh waste of space when it comes to the actual air that's in between the pieces of sand.

Tommi Eronen 18:15

Yes, exactly.

Peter Pongracz 18:16

But obviously, sand itself is a little bit lower energy density than than the actual cells themselves. So why does this not kill the business case for for your stationary

Why low volumetric density does not kill the business case

Peter Pongracz 18:28

storage?

Tommi Eronen 18:28

Yeah, the a key word probably there is the stationary storage because uh then uh the volumetric energy density doesn't matter. And uh the uh also the weight of it because uh we are not uh doing airplanes with these sand batteries, or we are not putting those into cars or ships. Uh so yeah, then then it doesn't kill the business case. It's also uh significantly cheaper uh to produce a sand battery than a BES system. But uh obviously a better comparison would be that uh like uh if you are trying to figure out uh how to do more sustainability and with low cost the low-pressure steam for the industry, it's actually quite uh hard thing to do uh because you can't use heat pumps anymore. So heat one heat pumps would be great for up to 100 degrees Celsius.

Peter Pongracz 19:37

I I can't remember what that's in Fahrenheit, but do you it's around uh 100 degrees Celsius, it's probably gonna be like 300, I guess. Something like that. But we'll we'll link to that anyway.

Tommi Eronen 19:49

That's basically a limit for plot heat pumps to do it effectively uh at today. So that's that's out of the game because uh majority of that steam would be around uh 200 to 250 degrees Celsius. Also, you can't do a steam storage. That would be uh in a larger tank that would be super expensive because you would have uh thick walls of steel. And then also it would be too dangerous to build a very large uh steam storage. But in our case, when we have just hot sand, and there even the airpipes are in air pressure so there's no danger and there's no uh toxic chemicals involved. Uh so it's just waiting there to be to be used, and our our size can be even like a gigawatt hour at at one side side.

How a full sand battery system is actually built and assembled

Peter Pongracz 20:56

And we've discussed just before the recording, you know, how this whole system actually works and how focused you guys are on the circular economy side of things as well. Can you explain the the actual production process and how does one come to life? So how do you assemble it, you know, where do you source the the sand, uh, etc.?

Tommi Eronen 21:17

I will use as an uh example the Word9N system uh that we did uh just uh last summer it started operating. So uh in there we we did the whole EPC project for the for the end customer lobby or the turnkey delivery. Uh so we we started uh with the with the groundworks, uh and uh then after that was finished uh we poured a concrete slab over there, and then after the slab was uh cured and hardened, uh then we start uh building the uh steel silo on on top of that. And in that case the silo was built on site because it's uh 15 meters in in diameter so we we couldn't uh road transport that uh to the site but i if we would have uh smaller uh systems then we would uh use a metal workshop to uh do the silo in there and just truck it uh to the site. But yeah uh then when the silo was finished uh the great amount of pipes were added uh in inside the silo which transfers uh that heat uh to the sand and uh out from there and in porn we actually used uh byproduct of uh finished uh fireplace manufacturing process where in yogat they are manufacturing uh fireplaces from sop stone and obviously when they are cutting uh with the saw these slabs of that stone there's these excess pieces that they can't use so those were crushed and tracked 50 truck loads of tos uh two boring and so 2000 tons of soapstone is there in inside that silo and when when that was finished uh then we built all the equipment uh on uh top of that uh silo so they are in close proximity to each other to minimize the heat loss but uh since then we uh realized that uh uh it's actually uh quite much more better if we bring the equipment uh to the ground uh level uh so that the project will be uh faster to deliver. We've got 200 tons of soapstone right um and uh once we actually um assembled the whole plant what would be what was the capacity and and what was the the megawatt hour storage that we we got at the end yeah so it has power in and out uh of one megawatt and uh energy capacity of 100 megawatt hours yeah so that's quite quite a quite a large storage system already uh and also like if if you compare our uh energy capacity to all of our uh competitors globally so our uh storage is basically 100 hours in in that case we can we can modify that a little bit so it doesn't have to be always 100 hours but uh in in there uh for the end customer who is producing uh district heating uh with the with the sand battery over there they wanted uh very large storage so that uh it's key for them to produce uh low low-priced district heating because then they have a very wide uh window of time where they can uh cherry pick uh the cheapest hours uh from the spot market uh to search the storage and also uh when you have a larger uh system uh then it's better to have it on the uh ancillary markets or it's easier to gain uh better profits from there and still lower uh the price of the heating oh for sure and I mean we we've already seguated into the district heating uh use case a little bit but can can you guys uh walk us through why does this make sense and does it also make sense beyond Finland and the Nordics as well? Yeah we think so there are many many uh districting uh networks in uh Europe and uh in other places global globally of course uh in states I think many in many places the district heating is uh done with steam so it would be even better to use sand battery over there because uh then obviously the water tanks are again uh completely useless compared to Finland where we we have like real competition uh if we are trying to produce uh district heating with sand battery that is the is the water tank better solution uh in there but uh also our customer in Lovis and Lambert and also in Lahti Energia uh which we are now currently building a new two times the size uh plant in in VAX or Latin Energia they they saw that the sand battery is a better solution uh compared to the water tank mainly because uh it has greater energy density so the water tank wouldn't even uh fit to the site and uh then you have better long-term efficiency. So you usually those water tanks they are used only like 4 to 10 hours compared to ours which is roughly 100 hours so in the water tank the hot and cold water are always in contact so you will actually lose energy internally because you you would want to have like always the maximum temperature water out from the tank but that's not possible because you have lost some of that energy from the hot water to the cold water in internally and that's that's a problem. And also in in districts heating networks during the hardest part of the year in the coldest times the temperature what they need is more than 100 degrees Celsius. So anyway you would have the water tank but you would have to prime the temperature up with with some system so in in our system you can do all that with uh one one system.

Peter Pongracz 28:21

Yeah and uh actually a question on on on that

How does the system perform in extreme cold?

Peter Pongracz 28:25

front so you know if you have a typical system of course the colder it gets outside the more your losses uh start to accumulate how does your system behave in the in the cold how does it how does the whole silo you know uh isolate itself or or retain the energy itself? Yeah that's a good question uh obviously uh the losses are uh a little bit higher uh during the winter time uh but uh our like yearly uh or long term efficiency of the system in in Bornainen it's uh roughly uh 83% uh efficient so if you would have two energy meters side by side uh so one uh would uh charge 100 units uh from the grid uh to the resistors uh you would have the districting energy meter uh at the next to it so uh it would say that you delivered to the network 83 units of heat and uh during that time uh you you have raised the value of the heat from from the time you didn't need it to the time that you needed yeah and I mean it's it's the perfect use case right so typically in these days the the customers are having a big and bigger and bigger uh pressure uh especially on the gas price and oil price uh volatility and and also there is the pressure to decarbonize as well so uh I mean what is your customer's

What is the main pain point the sand battery solves for customers?

Peter Pongracz 30:01

main pain like what are you guys solving with uh with the system yeah I think the main main pain uh of our customers is the uh fact that they they have to lower their uh emissions and uh the second biggest is obviously to uh do it with uh lower costs so those two are are the biggest and then uh also as stated previously they uh want to participate to uh bala uh to do the grid balancing or the ancillary market and uh obviously uh there's a reason for that because they they will get income uh while while doing it. Yeah for sure and you know Finland is quite a unique market in terms of uh the the solar use case as well right so if you're uh up north enough you can actually install uh solar panels at a 90 degree angle and you you still catch the the the Arctic sun which is a a crazy thing to for people to fathom you know in another country which is also very interesting but uh when when you guys are um looking uh into the future let's say in the next five years what are the kind of use cases that you are focusing on developing and and and where are you guys taking the system and the technology?

Tommi Eronen 31:21

Yeah so uh currently our all uh references are in the in the district heating uh use cases uh so we did first our first commercial system uh is in kangamba district heating network and our own pilot before that is in district heating network in Tumber. Our uh Pornanen unit is in district heating and our next uh unit in VAX will be in district heating but uh we we think that it's a great use cas for the sand battery to uh start doing uh steam for the industrial processes uh so for uh for food and beverage uh and um chemical uh kompanis and uh companies that produce uh all sorts of materials it's a great temperature range that you will get out from sandbury so that's that's where we will focus on the uh on the next years as i understood correctly so most of these industrial applications are currently using hot water into steam right or or is that the technology that they use or they are uh transitioning into the steam based technologies no so they are uh when they are manufacturing something and they use uh steam uh they are doing it uh either with uh oil or gas so that's their energy source so they fuel the the steam production with oil and gas yes and uh only uh only few companies are doing that uh with burning uh biomass but yeah it's m majority of it it's oil and gas that's a huge carbon producer as well yeah exactly I look at a business case typically so let's say you get in touch with the customer you know what matters the the most for the customer is it the the kind of electricity spread the the fuel replacement the utilization the subsidies or maybe all of the above can you give us some examples of how does the the process typically work? Yeah all of the above uh yeah we we have had in Finland uh the energy aid from business Finland uh to both of these uh cases uh in Born and in VAXU it was uh roughly 30% uh aid for for the investment uh or the project uh to the to the end customer.

Peter Pongracz 34:03

Maybe if we uh dig a little bit deeper into CapEx uh versus heat as a service so if if anybody built a larger project they can appreciate that usually those projects are quite capex intensive you know you need to put up a a lot of capital up front and then you are hoping for a return over time and you guys are actually working on a system or a solution uh called heat as a service so can you give us an idea how the financing was done before and maybe what heat as a service brings to the market?

Tommi Eronen 34:39

Yeah so previously uh both in uh Borniden and in VAXU where we delivered uh this uh Sunbury uh the customer uh financed uh the project so they they bought the uh EPC uh project from us and obviously that's uh time consuming uh when they uh need to do the investment uh decision in the organization but uh we would like to speed things up uh by offering our end customers the uh heat as a service uh system so so that uh company that it's producing beans uh they uh most likely want to focus on producing beans and not uh transition from there to be an energy company so we we would do all the hard things uh for for them and just uh deliver the steam uh to the factory and there they would be in that by by megawatt hours so I think that's a uh great way to reduce all the pain points that uh our customers have had.

Peter Pongracz 35:54

Yeah for sure it's it requires a little bit different uh uh skill sets right if you're producing beans versus building an energy company which even people who are building energy companies don't really do very well sometimes so it's uh it's a difficult uh nut to crack for sure. And obviously uh from our side also uh we need to learn uh some uh few skills more but we are we are aiming to uh find uh partners in in europe uh who would be our EPC partner for for the uh for the system and also the financing partner uh to do the heat as a service uh with us for sure I mean that's uh that that takes quite a lot of time to build the network but I I'm sure you guys will be able to

Could solar plus sand battery work as a fully behind the meter system?

Peter Pongracz 36:46

do it and um uh small side note uh here can we talk a little bit more uh about uh potential solutions maybe in the solar vertical or we don't have anything to showcase there. Basically we don't the only thing that we would have is that uh like we we are looking uh places where you would have large uh solar field uh next to like big industrial user of steam or heat so that the whole system would be uh behind the meter uh for the for the end kustmor so then you would skip the uh grid grid fees entirely and uh yeah that that kind of cases can can exist uh in europe and other places can we explain this a little bit in detail so like perhaps you know if you have a factory I I assume this would typically be like uh commercial and industrial type of solar system right because it would probably be on the roof and then you guys would be able to complement and help the system with the the sand battery as well so what would be the main benefits there yeah so they they wouldn't have to uh dump the excess solar uh to the grid and only get like a little bit income from there but they could dump the excess uh to the sand battery and then uh use the uh heat or steam uh locally uh from their own own system and then you would uh skip the grid uh fees entirely because the whole system would be behind the meter so uh that that can make sense in in some cases we've talked about the business uh vertical and the business level of of the whole system we talked a little bit about the physics like maybe let's uh uh talk a little bit more about the the manufacturing side

How are these systems manufactured and assembled at scale?

Peter Pongracz 38:47

so how do you guys actually manufacture this system so when do you have any sort of constraints I appreciate if you make uh or manufacture large silo it takes you know certain level of know-how you if you manufacture uh of course in the factory it's easier but if you need to manufacture an assemble on site it's a little bit more tricky so how does that work or what's your experience with that?

Tommi Eronen 39:10

Yeah uh you are right uh so uh in in Borneinen uh we manufactured the big uh steel silo on on site because uh it's 15 meters in diameter uh so we uh couldn't uh make that in in one piece at the metal workshop and then just road transport it because uh we think that in in Finland uh like roughly the maximum uh diameter of the silo can be uh seven and a half meters that you can still uh road transport to the site so uh it's uh uh little bit more uh slow working uh to do it on the side. So uh workings of Bolanite energy are not uh we don't have welders or anyone who would do like a physical work there but we have subcontractors uh who are doing that and uh then also uh the piping modules uh inside which transfer the heat in and out uh those are manufactured on the uh in in the uh metal workshop so that they are quite quite easily done there and then uh fitted uh in inside.

Peter Pongracz 40:33

So you already have some sort of like know-how of of how to try to standardize at least parts of the components and and and make them in the factory right it's cheaper and then then deliver those to the site right we are now considering to like uh actually uh standardize the like whole system in like few uh we are thinking uh four different uh sizes now in the beginning uh so that the whole system would be like absolutely uh ready uh designed and ready to go uh and that that would also have a huge huge benefit uh where when we start to do this uh heat as a service when the other part of the project would be faster so we also uh faster to deliver that uh because now our projects uh take uh a little bit more than a year uh on on a site and uh we would also obviously uh like to reduce that time uh on the site yeah of course and i i think as the uh the side effect you will probably also reduce the cost as well right so if you make it in the factory it becomes cheaper and cheaper and if we take a look at your experience so far you guys built more than 10 projects already right so what are the main lessons that you have learned from from making those projects and and you know that you know you would have been able to apply let's say if you went back in time to your first project versus the project that you're building right now yeah so so I have to correct you a bit uh we we haven't built uh 10 projects uh so uh we we have a first commercial one in in Kangaba so uh that was first ten in Born and now we are building one in uh VAXU so that will be third but yeah we we have learned uh great deal uh uh about things uh on the way and uh yeah obviously one uh like mo most important thing is that uh we would like to like prefactorate uh as much as possible on the uh workshops before we uh go go to the site but it's a little bit uh difficult when the system size is uh as as big as what what we have in here but we are we are doing our best. For sure and uh you you've touched on uh uh a little bit uh of the European expansion already so I guess uh would would the Baltics be the next logical step and and maybe second part of the same question uh this is a room for your shout out as well if you would like what type of partners are you looking for both in Europe and anywhere else we are uh already uh starting in uh Baltix in uh near near Riga in in Bolderaya and uh so we would be there they're also producing uh heat to the local district heating network and uh we we are doing that uh we by ourselves with with our partner we are looking in in Europe uh partners uh to uh deliver uh basically our system needs uh lots of uh metal work so uh companies who are producing uh silos and then we have a great deal of pipes inside the system heat exchangers uh industrial blowers and uh also companies who are doing the the whole uh EPC delivery uh and uh finally uh companies who would uh also uh finance uh with us uh these projects so if anybody of those companies is listening please feel free to to reach out to Tommy for sure or some of uh in in our company because i i might not be always uh seeing my emails what would be the best way to reach out to either yourself or the team yeah may maybe email yep okay so we we'll we'll link to the that in the show notes below and maybe a final long-term vision type of question so you you mentioned that the the idea and the the goal is to become a global leader in decarbonizing the industries what does that actually look like in 10 years what would you like to achieve in the next 10 years I would like to see uh great uh huge number of uh systems online both both in Europe and also then uh expanding uh globally of these uh power to heat systems and then also uh starting uh sam number of these uh sand to power uh units that are producing both elektricity and heat at the same time but that that's uh in a lower TRL level if our like uh systems that produce heat are only already in TRL 9 design power is in much lower level at the moment so it will have to mature when we finalize the Pilot project and then we build the first one and so on. Now very cool so Tommy this has been a conversation I've been looking forward to for a long long time and we finally made it happen. So thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and um yeah let's keep each other posted.

Tommi Eronen 46:28

Yeah thanks a lot Peter it was uh super nice to talk with you